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Monday, August 31, 2009
Even When Steeples Are Falling ...
22 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Your caption is extremely misleading. You know full well that the tornado did not take place during the vote. Why would you purposely mislead?
I was there when the tornado hit. Interesting that this tornado decided to do its damage at the time when great controversy over this issue was taking place. Even the man who prayed before the vote acknowledged the tornado in relation to the discussion.......
I was there, as well, Anonymous #3...you're changing the clear sense of the caption, just as you accuse others of changing the clear sense of Scripture. The caption explicitly claims the tornado came while the vote was happening, in order to increase the drama of it and the supposed "meaning" to be read into it. That is a lie and a distortion. But then, that probably should not surprise any of us.
Here's a really good, theologically and scripturally sound rebuke to the bad theology represented in this caption: http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/did-god-send-a-tornado-to-warn-the-elca/ (And that's addressing just the bad theology, and not addressing the sinful bearing of false witness... :-) )
The only issue at hand is that the ELCA has now taken on the mantle of God and can somehow determine what is sin and what is not. The ELCA now teaches that fornication and homosexual acts are not sin!!!! How can man, in God’s name, bless that which God has already said is sinful?
I am Anonymous #3. We're all Anonymous--how interesting. Anonymous #4 are you also Anonymous #1? If you are, I beg to differ in your interpretation of the poster--it simply states that the cross from the steeple was knocked off during the Assembly vote on August 19. It would be helpful to me to understand your claim if I knew how you were reading this poster: exegetically or eisegetically. Anonymous #2, I also love my neighbor but that doesn't mean one is to love the sins of the neighbor. Can you make that distinction? Why are you so angry?
I love that you use this photo and suggest a connection to the will of God. It only shows that CORE has an iffy understanding of the Bible, which clearly states that God was NOT in the great wind, but in the silence that followed.
I heard CORE members throwing around words like "The Rapture" and "Biblical literalism. Those are not Lutheran teachings. Even hardline traditional Lutherans -- such as those who founded CORE -- won't defend silly concepts like "The Rapture."
The truth is that CORE is a tenuous confederation of folks stuck in a 19th century interpretation of Lutheranism and folks following a neo-fundamentalist interpretation that has no basis in deep study or understanding of scripture. These two camps are destined to clash and fall out over very fundamental and core issues of belief.
Suggesting that this extremely minor damage to a steeple is evidence of God's disapproval is a prime example of how CORE can't even follow it's own 10 Core Beliefs.
Something tells me the steeple would have been damaged no matter what the outcome of the discussion and vote had been. Would CORE have posted this if the vote had been against the resolutions? I strongly doubt it...
1200 people attending the convocation...... More than the voting delegation of the CWA. More proof God is working because we didn't listen to him in Minneapolis.
Anonymous #3, the tornado occurred NOT during the vote on the sexuality statement, but rather during the Bible study on the parable of the prodigal and the welcoming Father. Prof. Jacobson of Luther Seminary was speaking at the time. Are we thereby to interpret that God was displeased that we were studying Scripture? Or that God had aught against the good professor? The point is, the caption is a deliberate attempt to mislead and draw a theological conclusion that cannot be drawn from the event. In other words, it's a lie, on all levels. Can I put it more baldly? I was trying to put the best construction on my neighbor's actions, but I suspect that my neighbor would not be so generous.
I'm going to break tradition here and actually not post anonymously.
I have to say I find this whole image and related story in bad taste. This is my grandmother's church (and has been for over 60 years) and getting hit by a tornado was a traumatic experience for them. To use it in this way is, I think, rather inappropriate regardless of how you feel about the vote. Marc Sedio (organist at Central), however, during worship that Sunday played a chorus of "Built on a rock the church shall stand even when steeples are falling". It was fantastic to sit with my family in a church full of Lutheran Christians experiencing God in Word and Sacrament who knew God was with them, even if their whole building had been destroyed.
As a voting member, I was quite impressed with the Churchwide Assembly in not resorting to this sort of silliness on the assembly floor. When the tornado hit we were just beginning a Bible study and the Presiding Bishop made a comment along the lines of "We are in the safest place in the building, doing exactly what we need to be doing right now." Which I took to mean, "let's not let this derail us from studying scripture together". Nobody started claiming they knew what God meant by this tornado. We were just praying for safety for those who were gathered there, for the people at Central across the street, and those in less safe locations.
If we do need to put a supernatural spin on this, I'm more apt to suggest that the tornado was an act of Satan, trying his best to scare us into giving up the Bible study, voting out of our fear, and making claims such as "God must want us to vote against this." That's way more his style than God's.
Seriously, Lutherans, let's not resort to that sort of bad hermeneutics and join the fundamentalists in claiming we've got a full handle on what God wants right now because of some weather related event (remember the regrettable things said by Christians after 9/11 and Katrina?.
The fact that the tornado hit (during tornado season in tornado country) during the Churchwide Assembly was simply a coincidence. If God was going to act to sway the vote, don't you think he might have just made someone else have to pee when the vote was being taken? (That seems way more God's style). That would have made the sexuality vote fail. Be against the vote, fine. Be in favor of withdrawing from the ELCA, fine. But don't hoist this kind of garbage on the Church of Jesus (unless its plainly clear that you are joking). It makes us all look bad.
More big words and spin from clergy why is it that clergy are the first to not believe God is at work..... More than 1200 attending....it's growing because these people are listening to their bibles......
Hello everyone. I'm anonymous #3. I believe we could debate this issue until Kingdom Come and it wouldn't change anyone's mind. Therefore, I am signing out of this blog. Each of us has a ministry to be involved in, and I pray that God will use our talents for good as each of us goes the way God calls us to go. Blessings to each of you.
Anonymous # whichever, the point is, which side is the spin on? And on which side is God working? That is basically where we are disagreeing with one another.
Pictures, whatever. That is not the real story here. They should have not been used. The real problem is that the ELCA is going against what it believes...or used to believe...the bible. The morons who voted in favor of the resolutions were just voting for themselves, not representing their respective congregations like they should have done. You can't change 2000 years of interpretation of the bible in a few days in Minneapolis. God help the ELCA.
'Tis a shameful thing when a church begins endorsing sin and saying it's OK to have homosexuals in the pulpit acting effeminate and corrupting our children. It's NOT OK. If my church began saying that I'd speak out even if I were excommunicated. I'd sooner leave and find a better more conservative church than sit silently as the candlestick is taken.
As Martin Luther himself said (and he too would be appalled by this). "Unless I am convinced by proofs from Scriptures or by plain and clear reasons and arguments, I can and will not retract, for it is neither safe nor wise to do anything against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen."
I highly, highly doubt this wicked vote reflects most Lutherans. It ought to be vetoed. :)
22 comments:
Your caption is extremely misleading. You know full well that the tornado did not take place during the vote. Why would you purposely mislead?
Quote this: "Love each other as I have loved you" look it up
And the 8th commandment? O hardcore Lutheran confessor.
I was there when the tornado hit. Interesting that this tornado decided to do its damage at the time when great controversy over this issue was taking place. Even the man who prayed before the vote acknowledged the tornado in relation to the discussion.......
I was there, as well, Anonymous #3...you're changing the clear sense of the caption, just as you accuse others of changing the clear sense of Scripture. The caption explicitly claims the tornado came while the vote was happening, in order to increase the drama of it and the supposed "meaning" to be read into it. That is a lie and a distortion. But then, that probably should not surprise any of us.
Here's a really good, theologically and scripturally sound rebuke to the bad theology represented in this caption: http://www.gregboyd.org/blog/did-god-send-a-tornado-to-warn-the-elca/
(And that's addressing just the bad theology, and not addressing the sinful bearing of false witness... :-) )
I am a disappointed Lutheran and am eager to hear what the next steps are for CORE. I pray something positive comes out of the upcoming convocation.
The only issue at hand is that the ELCA has now taken on the mantle of God and can somehow determine what is sin and what is not. The ELCA now teaches that fornication and homosexual acts are not sin!!!! How can man, in God’s name, bless that which God has already said is sinful?
I am Anonymous #3. We're all Anonymous--how interesting. Anonymous #4 are you also Anonymous #1? If you are, I beg to differ in your interpretation of the poster--it simply states that the cross from the steeple was knocked off during the Assembly vote on August 19. It would be helpful to me to understand your claim if I knew how you were reading this poster: exegetically or eisegetically.
Anonymous #2, I also love my neighbor but that doesn't mean one is to love the sins of the neighbor. Can you make that distinction? Why are you so angry?
I love that you use this photo and suggest a connection to the will of God. It only shows that CORE has an iffy understanding of the Bible, which clearly states that God was NOT in the great wind, but in the silence that followed.
I heard CORE members throwing around words like "The Rapture" and "Biblical literalism. Those are not Lutheran teachings. Even hardline traditional Lutherans -- such as those who founded CORE -- won't defend silly concepts like "The Rapture."
The truth is that CORE is a tenuous confederation of folks stuck in a 19th century interpretation of Lutheranism and folks following a neo-fundamentalist interpretation that has no basis in deep study or understanding of scripture. These two camps are destined to clash and fall out over very fundamental and core issues of belief.
Suggesting that this extremely minor damage to a steeple is evidence of God's disapproval is a prime example of how CORE can't even follow it's own 10 Core Beliefs.
Prove that it was not God.
Something tells me the steeple would have been damaged no matter what the outcome of the discussion and vote had been. Would CORE have posted this if the vote had been against the resolutions? I strongly doubt it...
1200 people attending the convocation...... More than the voting delegation of the CWA. More proof God is working because we didn't listen to him in Minneapolis.
Job 37:11,12,13 tell us who is in control of the storms, and why he
brings them. Verse 13 says it is for our correction.
Anonymous #3, the tornado occurred NOT during the vote on the sexuality statement, but rather during the Bible study on the parable of the prodigal and the welcoming Father. Prof. Jacobson of Luther Seminary was speaking at the time. Are we thereby to interpret that God was displeased that we were studying Scripture? Or that God had aught against the good professor? The point is, the caption is a deliberate attempt to mislead and draw a theological conclusion that cannot be drawn from the event. In other words, it's a lie, on all levels. Can I put it more baldly? I was trying to put the best construction on my neighbor's actions, but I suspect that my neighbor would not be so generous.
I'm going to break tradition here and actually not post anonymously.
I have to say I find this whole image and related story in bad taste. This is my grandmother's church (and has been for over 60 years) and getting hit by a tornado was a traumatic experience for them. To use it in this way is, I think, rather inappropriate regardless of how you feel about the vote. Marc Sedio (organist at Central), however, during worship that Sunday played a chorus of "Built on a rock the church shall stand even when steeples are falling". It was fantastic to sit with my family in a church full of Lutheran Christians experiencing God in Word and Sacrament who knew God was with them, even if their whole building had been destroyed.
As a voting member, I was quite impressed with the Churchwide Assembly in not resorting to this sort of silliness on the assembly floor. When the tornado hit we were just beginning a Bible study and the Presiding Bishop made a comment along the lines of "We are in the safest place in the building, doing exactly what we need to be doing right now." Which I took to mean, "let's not let this derail us from studying scripture together". Nobody started claiming they knew what God meant by this tornado. We were just praying for safety for those who were gathered there, for the people at Central across the street, and those in less safe locations.
If we do need to put a supernatural spin on this, I'm more apt to suggest that the tornado was an act of Satan, trying his best to scare us into giving up the Bible study, voting out of our fear, and making claims such as "God must want us to vote against this." That's way more his style than God's.
Seriously, Lutherans, let's not resort to that sort of bad hermeneutics and join the fundamentalists in claiming we've got a full handle on what God wants right now because of some weather related event (remember the regrettable things said by Christians after 9/11 and Katrina?.
The fact that the tornado hit (during tornado season in tornado country) during the Churchwide Assembly was simply a coincidence. If God was going to act to sway the vote, don't you think he might have just made someone else have to pee when the vote was being taken? (That seems way more God's style). That would have made the sexuality vote fail. Be against the vote, fine. Be in favor of withdrawing from the ELCA, fine. But don't hoist this kind of garbage on the Church of Jesus (unless its plainly clear that you are joking). It makes us all look bad.
More big words and spin from clergy why is it that clergy are the first to not believe God is at work..... More than 1200 attending....it's growing because these people are listening to their bibles......
Hello everyone. I'm anonymous #3. I believe we could debate this issue until Kingdom Come and it wouldn't change anyone's mind. Therefore, I am signing out of this blog. Each of us has a ministry to be involved in, and I pray that God will use our talents for good as each of us goes the way God calls us to go. Blessings to each of you.
Vr. Susan
Anonymous # whichever, the point is, which side is the spin on? And on which side is God working? That is basically where we are disagreeing with one another.
I am one of the "fundamentalists" that Pastor Erik seems to despise.
Remember, Pastor, that God once preached a rather effective sermon through the mouth of Baalam's donkey.
God spoke when He used the tornado to make His point. But Pastor Eric has hardened his heart and has chosen not to listen.
Pictures, whatever. That is not the real story here. They should have not been used. The real problem is that the ELCA is going against what it believes...or used to believe...the bible. The morons who voted in favor of the resolutions were just voting for themselves, not representing their respective congregations like they should have done. You can't change 2000 years of interpretation of the bible in a few days in Minneapolis. God help the ELCA.
'Tis a shameful thing when a church begins endorsing sin and saying it's OK to have homosexuals in the pulpit acting effeminate and corrupting our children. It's NOT OK. If my church began saying that I'd speak out even if I were excommunicated. I'd sooner leave and find a better more conservative church than sit silently as the candlestick is taken.
As Martin Luther himself said (and he too would be appalled by this). "Unless I am convinced by proofs from Scriptures or by plain and clear reasons and arguments, I can and will not retract, for it is neither safe nor wise to do anything against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen."
I highly, highly doubt this wicked vote reflects most Lutherans. It ought to be vetoed. :)
It's a sign. Not everybody in the Twin cities notices signs or obeys them. That works ok until an accident happens AND PEOPLE GET HURT.
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